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johnnyis42
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:57 pm Reply with quote

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i have to agree, the long wait for longhorn is probably hurting M$ more than most people think since an OS released now represents the market 3-5 years from now... but the number of markets that Windows touches seem to be much more diverse than any other operating system. i look at it like:

Market 1: small business domain with or without active directory services

Market 2: large enterprise businesses with hybrid Windows/Unix environments

Market 3: home users, including students, average jo, professionals, etc

when you look at it, alot of smaller businesses didn't jump from NT server to active directory until after 2003 server hit the market. that's almost a 10 year wait to upgrade, vs companies who always had the latest releases and participated in beta testing as well. this is the market worth the most with upgrading desktop operating systems, since they only upgrade the workstations based on need.

the question as to why Windows makes up the majority of COTS software, IMO, lies with things like directX and hardware driver support, as well as the host of M$ API's that programmers support. like with .NET, which is supposed to revolutionize programming.... how many software packages have you installed which have the disclaimer "You must have version X.XX of the .NET framework" versus "you must have directX version X"? ok, games mostly deal with directX, but i guarantee that not having the latest directX will cause some multimedia hardware (sound chips, video chips, cameras) not to function properly with their latest drivers. point being, if developers are relying on M$ API's, then they just plain CANNOT do the same thing for other operating systems (Linux, Mac OSX) that they can for Windows.

Longhorn is supposed to bring with it some absolutely revolutionary API's for gamming, multimedia, driver archetecture, and have much more use of .NET framework (whatever that means). now, most betx builds of Longhorn now probably aren't a huge jump from the XP's NT5.1 kernel, and that's what i don't hear much talk about... the revision number of the NT kernel that will be used with Longhorn. because guess what, if it's not different enough, it will bring with it most of the problems with security that XP/2000 has, and if it changes too much, it will break a great deal of software XP uses now.

so here's what i see as the real threat that Mac and Linux poses to Windows: IF a unified x86 language with a suite of API's that will run hardware with software seemlessly between platforms using the X server for heavy multimedia use (by the way, the GPU driven desktop Longhorn supports is already implimented on some builds of Linux, and i believe on Mac's Tiger as well) then M$ has a real issue.

if that change doesn't happen, then no matter if it's a year or 2 more years, Longhorn's release date will not have that big of an impact on M$'s market share. Sure, maybe they won't sell that manu units in the interim, but between all their small office and enterprise products that support what already exists, without anything revolutionary hitting the market it will be business as usual. and if i'm wrong i'll be thrilled, because right now the PC market is pretty stagnant, and i'd love to see some real excitement devoid of marketing hype.
 
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Computer Guru
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 2:40 am Reply with quote

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It seems as if there really isnt a windows longhorn: that M$ will keep on improving on XP until it rules... but that=no money

xp's great, add to it winfs, indigo, and ie7 and you have a new os: a free upgrade... oops

i dont know what m$ is up to.

I love Microsoft. Whenever i left IE in the past, I always went back to it. yes, even from mozilla, but this time, my leave was permanent. Im embracing Linux more, and Mac is looking nicer by the day....

embarrassed
 
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Avenge19
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:13 am Reply with quote

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The problem is marketing. Microsoft has a strong grip hold on having computers preinstalled on computers. That's what's keeping this endless cycle of everyone (majority) using Windows in the computing world. sad Until Apple Machintosh or IBM (IBM promotes & sponsors Redhat Linux) get their operating systems preinstalled on newbie computers. We are all stuck with the fact that Microsoft releases the most used operating system in the world.

While for Macs. I feel your pain. It's a shame Microsoft keeps copying from them.

I'm also sad that practically everything for operating systems was originally copied.
Windows: Orginally copied from Xerox operating sytem.
Macs: Bought operating system from Xerox whatever. Yes, I know new macs have a competely different kernel and are not copied.
Linux: Orginally copied off UNIX.

Unix: I like UNIX (BSD which is based off UNIX) now. But, it's lost it last chance already for the becomming main operating system in the PC market.

Chairman wrote:
But others might not... they might head to the Apple store they've passed a few hundreds times to work but never gone into, or they might pick up a version of Linux and say, "What the hell?"

Hopefully that will happen.
 
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phileysmiley
Larry Richman
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:17 am Reply with quote

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I will be writing much more extensively on this here. But I must make a few brief points.

I spent the better part of a week with the developers of Longhorn. Yes, I attended the same Keynote that you can see here. But I also spent quite a bit of time with Joe Peterson, Vice President of Product Development for the Windows division and Shanen Boettcher, director of Longhorn development. My conversations with them occurred over lunch and I spoke at length with Boettcher, both at a table with about 10 people as well as one-on-one over coffee.

It was a real eye-opening experience. I challenged them to respond to the criticisms being leveled at them by the press and public: it's taking too long, it's a copy of Tiger, they can't meet the dates, features have been stripped out, etc. I came away with a new understanding of what really goes on in Redmond and what is in store over the next year.

Much of what we heard has been or will be in the press. You may or may not come across these accounts, but they put to rest many of the arguments against LH. But some of what I heard was in private conversation, not meant for dissemination to the public.

Like you, I was skeptical too. And, as a journalist, I certainly have no reason nor desire to suddenly praise everything that MS has done with LH. But I am all about facts. And much of the "noise" about LH is lacking in facts.

For one thing, there seems to be a huge misunderstanding about what 5048 actually is. It is not meant to be the state-of-the-art of Longhorn development. It is certainly not meant to be anyone's primary OS. It is just a sampling of some features that were either not present in 4074 or have been refined since then. Some bugs have been fixed. But anyone who expected this Build to be anything close to the final OS is sadly mistaken.

The reality is that Beta 1 will, indeed, be pretty much up-to-date in LH development. There will be a big difference between 5048 and Beta 1. Many of the features that will ultimately make it into LH will be in Beta 1. And Beta 2 will pretty much have them all. So there will be a huge leap from 5048 to Beta 1. What people were expecting to come out in 5048 will, in fact, be present in Beta 1. Expectations of 5048 were way too high.

It was mentioned earlier but bears repeating: Longhorn is still 18 months away, and for people to be looking at this Build and saying "gee, this isn't that impressive -- Longhorn will just be a glorified XP" is just goofy. That's like looking at a clay model of a car and saying, "this doesn't look like it will be the Mustang we hoped it would be."

The most impressive features of Longhorn aren't even in the Build we have now. Some won't even be in Beta 1. I just don't understand why people are expecting so much out of this Build. High expectations lead to disappointment, and unfortunately, most people's expectations were way too high.

I saw previews of some of Longhorn's capabilities, features not yet in the Build, which will put to rest any notion that LH is just a "glorified XP."

People complain about the lack of themes. Well, LH will have skinning support. What you do now with a hack will be built into the OS. People complained about the Sidebar. The Sidebar is dead. It has been pulled. People complained about WinFS being pulled, asuming that the search features we had heard so much about were gone. That couldn't be further from the truth. WinFS was a misnomer. MS unfortunately focused on developer terms and not end-user terms. "WinFS" really refers to the ability of developers to extend metadata, to customize search features for their own applications. That's what was pulled. But everything we had been told would be in Longhorn will be in Longhorn. The search features are there. The idea that "1/3 of Longhorn is gone," that the OS was being stripped down, was just plain wrong. It was an unfortunate choice of terms and unclear representation to the media which caused the press and public to believe that the search features were not going to be included. We saw them demonstrated and they are impressive indeed. And they will be there.

I could go on and on. As far as dates go, they are set in stone. I heard that over and over and over, both privately and publicly. Beta 1 will be out this summer, Beta 2 in the fall, and Longhorn will ship next Summer for public availability in the Holiday 2006 season. If Product teams do not meet their deadlines, they will be fired. plain and simple. MS has learned from the past and they know that if they don't meet those dates, they will lose a lot of stock in the marketplace. I would bet on it.
 
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JabbaPapa
Julian Lord
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:32 am Reply with quote

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johnnyis42 wrote:
i have to agree, the long wait for lonhorn is probably hurting M$ more than most people think since an OS released now represents the market 3-5 years from now...


Hmmm, I don't share the analysis personally. Joe Public probably isn't even aware of the fact that Microsoft is developing the successor to Windows XP, he'll just hear about it a few short months before it's released. In the mean time, Windows is either XP or 98/Me ... whistle

Longhorn is hardly a topic of conversation or worry for regular guys, is it ? I mean how many conversations have you overheard in your local bar about how Microsoft is screwing up because LH isn't coming out fast enough ?

Let's face it, most of the negative hype surrounding Longhorn is being generated by a small group of geeks & power users, comparing the virtues of a features-lite Alpha OS with Apple's finished product. rolleyes In the final analysis, they're comparing something which is basically a buggy version of XP with a couple of extra features, a placeholder GUI which is nothing like the final GUI as it will be released, and a major new presentation model (Aero) that so far has no meaningful software support (because the OS release date is still some years ahead, d'oh!) --- and a fully operable Operating System with full software support from the manufacturer.

That's just NOT a fair comparison, it's like someone going into Enzo Ferrari's workshop two years before he rolled out his first commercial vehicle, and then blogging all over the internet that the forthcoming Ferraris will never be as popular as those fantastic Rolls Royce vehicles made in England, blah blah blah at great length about how RR are wonderful and isn't it a shame how everyone is just stealing their ideas lol tongue drool ...
 
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phileysmiley
Larry Richman
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:35 am Reply with quote

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Now that's just weird, Julian. We were posting essentially the same thing at the same time using slightly different terminology. We even both used a car analogy. saywhat blink
 
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JabbaPapa
Julian Lord
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:38 am Reply with quote

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LOL Larry, if your post had been up before I started typing all that, it would have been unnecessary.

Fun to see you used the car manufacturing metaphor yourself smilenod notworthy tongue
 
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Index >> JCDerrick - Founders Blurb >> Longhorn reality. Now, late, or never?

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