This all stems from the Kyoto agreement and the US's inability to sign up for it. If they did, then they would have to increase fuel prices in line with the rest of the world, and the mebers of the Senate and Congress know this is political dynamite, hence the reason for going it alone. This has had a snowball effect on everything including the running costs of Climatology and other similar ventures, and the cut back of the same. The Bush Administration say they are all for conservation, but they have effectively turned their back on it.

Mac33 wrote:

This all stems from the Kyoto agreement and the US's inability to sign up for it. If they did, then they would have to increase fuel prices in line with the rest of the world, and the mebers of the Senate and Congress know this is political dynamite, hence the reason for going it alone. This has had a snowball effect on everything including the running costs of Climatology and other similar ventures, and the cut back of the same. The Bush Administration say they are all for conservation, but they have effectively turned their back on it.

They have completely ignored it. I sat in a class this past semester that spent the better half of the semester on Kyoto or policy surrounding it.

It amazes me we just ignore the policy because of cost alone... I mean, it's quite clear there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Global warming will and already has caused problems... and given CO2 exists in the ATM for 50-200 yrs after it's released proves this is not a problem we can shut off just one day in the future. If we stop now it may very well still be to late to turn around the diverse effects our future likely holds.

Most people ignore the threats of future GHG emissions and Global warming. Granted proof is only in the models, but we shouldn't forget also that those models have been right before and that they are, in fact, the best thing we have.

They tend to agree Global Warming is going to cause problems... especially with Seal Levels, Extreme Events, and Crop Yields (10% for every degree C)...

The policy will change... I can promise that, but not until another severe event hits the US. If we had another Chicago Heat Wave, major Hurricane, snow storm, etc... we'd see the policy change. Mostly because people wouldn't b*tch and moan about paying more at the pump, etc.

Personally I'm still a big believer in the "No Regrets" strategy...

Start Small (Local Scale).... Win Big (Global Scale)

I agree in starting small. If everyone done their bit, then on the whole it would make a massive difference. I'm afraid people are far too complacent, and if they cannot see it in front of their nose then they just ignore it. We really all must take this seriously, and in the UK we have many policies in place to ensure we protect our environment, and most of us now do our bit to conserve energy, and take other steps such as recycling on a big scale.

>>I think we see problems when politics and science clash... so you made a good point actually. <<

lol, thanks i think!

I have a problem with the notion/theory of global warming. There is a lot of evidence that the Earth goes through very cyclical changes and there is NOTHING we can do about it. Do you honestly think we are going to be able to stop the next ice age?

I think we should be spending money on the R&D necessary to create the machines that will allow us to control the climate. Thats a ways off but in time all the secrets of the universe will be revealed to us.

However we are able to protect our enviroment by recycling, creating less poputing cars, conserve our energy. The fact is that the human race will destroy itself before time will.

johnliscomb wrote:

>>I think we see problems when politics and science clash... so you made a good point actually. << lol, thanks i think! I have a problem with the notion/theory of global warming. There is a lot of evidence that the Earth goes through very cyclical changes and there is NOTHING we can do about it. Do you honestly think we are going to be able to stop the next ice age? I think we should be spending money on the R&D necessary to create the machines that will allow us to control the climate. Thats a ways off but in time all the secrets of the universe will be revealed to us.

No, we can't stop it... but we can know better when and how it will come and effect us. In all honesty, we're overdue for a D/O event. Here are two papers I wrote this year on the subject:

This first one is my debate:
http://www.pronetworks.org/DangerousClimaticChangeDebate.pdf

This one is my project that included MAGICC/SCENGEN (took me 25 hours to write this paper and do the models):
http://www.pronetworks.org/ClimateChangeScenario.pdf


The severity of the future events are what I feel we can control. The earth very well does have its own natural cycles it goes through, but as you'll see in my papers... humans are clearly having a large effect on that cycle, in fact, we are speeding it up. There is a lot of evidence for and against Global Warming. But I think it's clear humans are affecting the processes of the earth... we're producing unnatural amounts and quantities in a balanced system. It's like taking a math equation and suddenly throwing in some "x5" on one side. The scale will tip... how bad and how fast... well... that's my job to find out. I hope...

Excellent papers John and no wonder it took you 25 hours. I have proof read it, and will go over it again for comment later.

i think your overlooking a couple of things.

First, the resilency of the Earth itself. I don't think man can really do a lot of long term damage unless of course we are talking nukes.

And two, that when the next big event comes, either a huge heat wave or another ice age most likely, there is nothing that you, me or anyone else can do about it. We are all going to die, even the cockroaches.

So i can either go around and act like Chicken Little and say, "the sky is falling the sky is falling." Or i can live each day to the fullest and not worry about that which i cannot control.



That being said, i think that conservation, recycling, alternative energy resources, etc are all very positive things and all of those programs should be developed a lot further.

johnliscomb wrote:

i think your overlooking a couple of things. First, the resilency of the Earth itself. I don't think man can really do a lot of long term damage unless of course we are talking nukes. And two, that when the next big event comes, either a huge heat wave or another ice age most likely, there is nothing that you, me or anyone else can do about it. We are all going to die, even the cockroaches. So i can either go around and act like Chicken Little and say, "the sky is falling the sky is falling." Or i can live each day to the fullest and not worry about that which i cannot control. That being said, i think that conservation, recycling, alternative energy resources, etc are all very positive things and all of those programs should be developed a lot further.

Well, you're right and wrong at the same time in my eyes.

I think human beings are of great enough number to in fact affect the system of life on the earth. Taking in the Gaia theory even, we are part of the larger "organism" but at the same time we can change the system. If we put irregular amounts of material into the ATM eventually we'll overload the system... and like a virus in the body, the earth will react to squash the threat however it see's fit... I denoted the Dust Bowl as an example above. There are hundreds of others.

I agree we have little control against the forces of nature, but you'd be surprised how much of our economy is based on it... insurance and the like especially. So it does affect us here and now financially. May seem silly, but when was the last time your Insurance Company called you up and said, "Hey... live for today, here's a refund." I am still waiting for the call.

As for all life being destroyed... I disagree. I know me and you have differing opinions about life, evolution and the like. But I think we can agree Dinosaurs once roamed the earth. They were wiped out and mammals survived the ice age between to now populate the planet today. There will certainly be another mass extinction in time... they are very much a part of our past and will likely be a part of our future. But what will come out of the next mass extinction. Who knows... That's why I believe in evolution so strongly. The strongest survive... they go on to further life on the planet.

Life is an amazing thing... but even in Choas... "Life finds a way..." Just part of Gods many miracles.

A lot of this also forces us to believe life is about more than just people.

Some people have problems with that. I don't myself. I like knowing I'm part of a bigger complex system, and that instead of being outside the system, I'm in it. It brings some sense of well being to my mind.

Many people view us as separate, the only key thing on the earth or the universe.

I believe that as a part of that system on earth we form larger systems... be it our solar system, galaxy and the like.

In all honesty, I'd love to see the reaction of humans if and when we find life on other planets. We've pretty much proved life existed in minute form on the planet next door. If we found life (even small life) that close by in the "neighborhood" it only boggles my mind what might be around the "block" or in the next "state"...

It's a big universe out there... life surely must be abound. Kinda is fascinating to think about...